Hazel,

我很欣赏你下面的一段话:
yes, stand by the principle: although I do not agree upon your idea, I do everything to show repect to your freedom of speaking it out. It is so easy to talk about the principle. However, it is so hard to carry it out.
在网络中是比较容易引起误会的.我相信这是一个误会.当然,我也不想知道何谓你所说的"新警察".警察这个东西是比较怪,好象没人喜欢的.可能我们的误会来源于此.我这两天看你的回贴,是有点生气.因为我看到你在每次回贴的后半部份仿佛带有莫名其妙的情绪.不错,你来美国的时间比我长,或许感受也比我深刻.我提出并且想讨论的问题和文化有关,体制有关,也和个人的实际感受有关.每个人对同一件事物的看法是不同的,何为对,何为错,其实对于决大多数话题来说没有特别明确的界限.你觉得冲印照片冒风险是因为一分钱一分货的原因,而且你可以欣然接受;而我认为是人的素质问题,其实,我也接受这个事实,我也在快乐地生活在这个环境里.只是我有我的看法,想表达出来而已.

对于变蓝字的问题,我没有考虑太多什么,年初的那个贴子也是蓝字,这说明我引起的这类话题有讨论的意义,贴子是有感而发,不是一般灌水.仅此而已.至于谁说什么意见,都是自己的事情.一般黑字的贴子也有很多是上百个回贴的,不奇怪.我确实没有考虑到flooded的问题.我知道,在无忌里有很多贴子flooded的,最后不知所云.

我的言语当然有不当的地方,带有个人情绪,还是请原谅!是忠心的!
希望有机会和你讨论其它问题.

领导要用机器了,先说到这里.
对了,翔宇,刚看到你的贴子.谢谢!

baconn,

It is really the last reply i will make in this thread. I am sorry I am writing in English because my Chinese input corrupted right just now.

I do not feel it will do any good further to make a discussion with you because your words tend to be more and more offensive than discusion or even less arguing, which is not what I intended and intend to see. You may have seen that your name on this thread has been turned to blue and you know what it means, right? Hence I chosed to cease and retreat. If I were any close to you and your manner, this thread would be flooded with those offensive words rather than a good, sincere discussion. I again apologize for those uncollected words by calling your a "new cop", which might have done bad first to result in such a consequence. I paid and got a lesson from this. In terms of that, I thank you sincerely.

Yes, I adopted a lot of principles here, which are common senses rather than just a concept or two, that make my life easier and happier. I know also a word namely "culture-shock",which I can understand not only by its definition but also its physical behavior. I was trying to find an excuse for you in a humorous way at the very beginning to vent your unsatisfactory, which turned out to be total misunderstanding, failure and disasterous at last. It is a lesson I will never forget.

yes, stand by the principle: although I do not agree upon your idea, I do everything to show respect to your freedom of speaking it out. It is so easy to talk about the principle. However, it is so hard  to carry it out.

This is my last word with this thread. I apologise again by typing in English due to the corruption of my Chinese input program. I hope it won't be offensive by doing so.

Happy shooting.

[Hazel 编辑于 2002-09-24 13:05 ]

看了楼主对hazel的观点的回贴,hazel扭头快马加鞭,败退300余哩 远远的甩下最后几句话:you got what you paid. That is the way of life. Happy shooting

我原来的记念照都是在Sam's Club冲的Double,5days.质量还可以,重要的是价钱太便宜了---比国内还便宜!
翻转我都是去的Photo One,$7左右(学生有打折扣),不加框在学校底扫后再挑好的去放.成本实际上很低.后来在杂志上看见说实际上负片更适合底扫+放大下周末去北密一定要试试.毕竟副片专冲只要$5,而且1hour就可取了.   更绝的是我上周在一个沙龙上见到一个白人show他在上海拍的片子(BTW,他太太是Chinese,他的中文讲得比多数广东人都好). 他的片子(全是黑白的4X5)都是底扫后用喷墨打在类似于绢的一种特殊的纸上面效果棒极了!本来还想在家里搞个黑白暗房这回要再考虑是不是该为digital的了.

说回负片. 我两个月前给朋友的婚礼拍了(包括比较正式的婚纱照)十来个卷.没在Photo One冲(毕竟还是有些贵,他本人又不那么在乎放大质量),去了Target冲了5个Fuji NPH-400,5个KODAK 400NC. 第二天去取时真是没想到,效果极好!!!!后来挑了18张放了11x14,16x20的.BTW,Kodak比Fuji颗粒要粗好多.

我也在Ann Arbor,Michigan.

"嘿嘿,确实没听过新警察的笑话."

嘿嘿...很遗憾...

"不过,Hazel啊,以己度人往往要误会的,你周末干了啥俺是不清楚的.俺要东拉西撤一些话,恐怕能听懂的也是少数."

至理名言.....嘿嘿

"...不过俺这里还是向你表达Sorry, 不是Apology....."

Sorry for what????

"你说1小时,5天是一个结果,那好,说明了什么问题呢?还不是冲印店同样对工作的不负责任吗?冲印店老板说了:"我们是1小时服务,不是专业服务,可不要对我们有什么特别要求,能出来个影儿就行了嘛!","我们请的是高中生做片子的,不要有什么高要求!"..... "

你想对高中生提什么要求呢? 要求小学生能写报告文学?

".....我倒迷惑了,那么按你的说法,除了pro lab以外,美国的普通冲印店请的都应该是非专业的操作员,那么都是没有特别的保证了.除非你去pro lab. 这应该是你的论点,对吗?
那么,这里与国内目前的状况应该没有本质区别.这里叫非专业,国内叫闲杂人员.... "

我没有非此即彼的思维观念.英语里有一句非常暧昧的话叫:"Everything is possible." 专业店的雇员都是专业水平,非专业店就是业余水平我是不会抱这种观点的.也许某位大师龙游浅滩,虎落平阳了呢! 如果按照字典的概念,Professional和amature是有天壤之别的.用professional的水平要求amature是很不公平的,除非后者自身有这个主观愿望.至于如何给国内的工作人员定义,我不知道.我知道他们的名字应该叫"雇员".

"我不相信你在美国的负片经历都是满意的.你恐怕也经历过由Costco,Albertsons, Walmart, Target等等副业冲印店转向pro lab的过程. 那么你的看法应该是:这些个店的服务质量没有保证,所以转向了专业店.是吗?"

嘿嘿...我不满意的时候我申诉,我知道我的权利.直到我满意为止,店家对顾客的liability就是为顾客提供令顾客满意的服务.

至于扩印照片,我已经几乎不做了.我只冲负片底片(在super walmart 或者sams club, 1HR).因为我有底扫.

嘿嘿,确实没听过新警察的笑话.不过,Hazel啊,以己度人往往要误会的,你周末干了啥俺是不清楚的.俺要东拉西撤一些话,恐怕能听懂的也是少数.不过俺这里还是向你表达Sorry, 不是Apology.

你说1小时,5天是一个结果,那好,说明了什么问题呢?还不是冲印店同样对工作的不负责任吗?冲印店老板说了:"我们是1小时服务,不是专业服务,可不要对我们有什么特别要求,能出来个影儿就行了嘛!","我们请的是高中生做片子的,不要有什么高要求!"

我倒迷惑了,那么按你的说法,除了pro lab以外,美国的普通冲印店请的都应该是非专业的操作员,那么都是没有特别的保证了.除非你去pro lab. 这应该是你的论点,对吗?
那么,这里与国内目前的状况应该没有本质区别.这里叫非专业,国内叫闲杂人员.

我不相信你在美国的负片经历都是满意的.你恐怕也经历过由Costco,Albertsons, Walmart, Target等等副业冲印店转向pro lab的过程. 那么你的看法应该是:这些个店的服务质量没有保证,所以转向了专业店.是吗?

那么我们的论点其实并没有矛盾.

Hazel,Blackeye,翔宇：
你们哥仨不好好待在北美摄友坛跑到这儿串门子溜弯，嗯？
各位：
谁知道在美国那家店冲洗120 slide 便宜又好？我们当地的一家要7.67美刀，加胶片3美刀，6x7 10张每张一美刀多，太贵了。前两天给一家南美人照相（负片）送到我们当地的商店冲洗印放，片子好极了。以前我们也是送到Costco，质量不怎么好，便宜嘛，但35 毫米slide 的处理还行。

Hazel很GENTLE阿 显然baconn老兄没有看过那新警察的笑话！

baconn; Hazel 绝对没有冒犯您的意思。一个朋友间的善意玩笑别紧张！

Maxxum :
        非常感谢你的帮助，你帮我解决了不少问题。
        谢谢。

支离破碎,

I would recommend you to send your film to "The Lab in Vancouver". In fact, it is the lab where the most of pros are using in Vancouver area.

Here is their website: http://www_thelabvancouver_com

Here is my opinion about how to choose a photo lab in US:

Forget about the mail-order film process as well as drug-store type of film process (WalMart, CVS, Target, ...). You can always find a trusted color lab locally if you are in a major metropolitan area. By walking to the front dest and handing out your film to the lab fellow, I feel much more confident than mailing it out. For myself, I always drop the film to the lab on my way to the work in the morning. And then, I pick it up on my way home in the evening. I have been doing the same thing for 5 years. The professional lab never gives me any kind of trouble.

Believe me, people who working in a pro lab they understand how important a roll of film is. The way they handles the film is the same way as yours.

看看硬币的另一面,兼听则明啦! 也许能部分回答"新片警"baconn的疑惑
全文来自

http://www_photo_net/neighbor/view-one?neighbor_to_neighbor_id=150845

为方便无法方便进入国外网站的爱好者,转录全文如下

1. Stop trashing 1 hour lab employees! : We're not professional photographers!
It really bothers me that so many of you trash the employees who work in 1 hour photo labs. These people are not professional photographers! I'm a photo lab manager for CVS in Lynn Massachusetts and the kids I have working for me are still in high school. If your such a professional then maybe you shouldn't be taking your film to a high school kid in a drug store.

-- Adam Wheeer, December 29, 2001
Comments
I have had good and bad experience in using 1 hour lab, it all depends on the operator and how rational you are. Human behaviour is really kind of irrational, you spent $2000 on a Nikon F5, $500 on a 24-85 Nikkor zoom, $50 on Fuji NPH kinda professional stuff, another $1000 on a plane ticket to Paris, then you came back and let your 1 hour lab process your 10 rolls for 6.99 a roll for double prints.

-- Chung Leung Lai, June 21, 2002
I was an Eckerd 1 hour photo employee for half a year during my senior year of high school cause I needed something to keep me occupied. I have a passion for photography, so I enjoyed the job and liked to touch up people's photos.
I eventually quit because the customers were so mean to me for things that they usually did, they'd make me cry at the register. How I am to blame for something as stupid as them putting their thumb in the corner of the lens, not liking how the prints look AFTER asking for a specific paper quality, etc is beyond me.

I used to have people throw beautiful pix back at me and go "These look like garbage. Redo them." It's not my fault if you have a flight to catch, a wedding to go to, or if you can't even meter your exposure correctly on your poor quality film. I was just there to process, print, touch up, smile, thank the customer, take their payment, and be on my way for $6 an hour, not to give them professional critiques and airbrushing!

-- Laura Napolitano, September 2, 2002

I couldn't have said it better. If you are a photo_net member (don't need to be a pro), you probably won't be happy with CVS (or any other drug/grocery store). They cater to a low-end market that can't afford to pay more than minimum wage. The results can only be expected.
Question: Do you have any quality control beyond high school kids? Are your chemicals fresh?

I've only tried CVS once and I would never do that to my pictures again!

-- Kandy R, December 31, 2001

We do have fresh chemicals and there is some level of quality control. Qualex does check up on us however, I know how most of you feel about Qualex. I feel the same way.

-- Adam Wheeer, January 9, 2002
I want to add your comments. Many one-hour labs are highly turned over and not much training. Mostly employee have no idea what the professional photographers talked about push/pull processing, dodging or buring, density, etc. ALL minilab doens't have setting the timer to process for slowest to fastest for 20 to 1 1/2 hours processing according to your film ISO. Minilab takes about 10 to 15 minutes processing. Plus, the minilab printer doesn't have control like the darkroom, eg. crop, color balance, density ,etc. I usually tell them go to the professional color lab , however, they tell me that is expensive. Again, the minilab is not professional.

-- neressa Morrison, April 8, 2002
Just thuoght Id put my2c worth in. Shop around, Find a good lab, down here (N.Z.) lots of labs my own included are operator owned most of us have a knowledge and interest in photography.
My advice is find a good lab, make friends with the printer and stick with them if you are not happy go back and have your shot redone most decent labs will do this no charge. However be prepared to pay a little more than drugstore or mailorder

-- nick clark, April 22, 2002

I agree that you get what you pay for. Some minilabs, however, try to bill themselves as giving professional results and charging professional rates. As soon as a request is made such as "keep detail in the wedding dress by printing darker" or "retain detail in the faces even if the background blows out" and they act as if the exposure is way out and they can't "fix" it. When in fact, a particular mood was enhanced by a darker or lighter background OR the latitude in their prints can't handle the latitude in the neg. I have seen most minilabs producing horribly contrasty prints from properly exposed film. Can we say Control strip?....yes. Can we read control strip?....Doesn't look like it.

-- Jeff R., May 6, 2002
Again with the trashing!! You people do not need to be making derogatory comments about photo lab employees. As I said before most of them are in high school and don't really know what a control strip is even for. They there to run the equipment and help customers with very basic things. They are not stupid they're just not photographers. So, I'd appreciate if you'd take your ignorance somewhere else.

-- Adam Wheeer, May 6, 2002
You know Adam, I want to tell you something. I think that if these kids don't know a jack about where they are working and the machines they are working with, then they shouldn't be there! People take their film, which is very important to some people, (it just MIGHT have some important memories recorded on them) there to get it developed. And when they get crappy results, we have all the rights in the world to complain! If we get food that is burnt at a restaurant, do we just eat it and pay the 7 bucks for the crispy burger? Heck no we don't! The lab is there for a reason...To develop and print film..And when it is done poorly, every person paying to have this SERVICE done has a right to complain.

-- Patrick M, May 17, 2002
Do you go to McDonalds and complain because the burger doesn't taste as good as the one you got at that $50 a plate resteraunt you went to last night? I've been running a photo lab for roughly a year now, and I have not destroyed a single roll of film by my own negligence. I have however had customers complain that "that wasn't the color of the water there" or "the engine was painted a brighter red". Don't do things one-hour unless you need them one hour, and don't expect the same quality from any one hour machine that you would get from a $20 or $30 a roll developing service. To be completely plain, most mini-labs don't support pushing, or any major editing. They let you change the colors slightly, and the density, thats about it. Newer machines have digital systems built in to help with quality, but those aren't widely used yet.

-- Dan Della Paolera, May 17, 2002
Thanks Dan. It's nice to know that somebody gets it.

-- Adam Wheeer, June 1, 2002
As a lab owner, my greatest frustration is trying to inform the public (both professional and otherwise) on the distinction between a professional lab such as ours and the labs located in mass merchants, drugstores and groceries. Clearly their expertise is in the area of retail merchandise and not top quality finishing. Quality processing comes from a trained staff using good equipment with a thorough understanding of what image quality is. Many people mistakenly assume because a drugstore has a Fuji Frontier that their work will look like all other Frontier labs work. As a lab owner I can assure you that not everyone who has a business card and a Nikon is a professional photographer. In choosing a lab the first words should NOT be "what is your pro discount?" Any business person has to keep their costs under control. However any business model that cannot support the price of quality processing is a poor one. It has been said here several times that one should develop a relationship with a good local lab. Get to know the staff and make them your friends. I guarantee that you will get the lowest cost, highest quality processing around if only for the film saved and referrals made. Someone once told me " A cheapskate pays twice as much"

-- Mark Davidson, June 10, 2002
The thing that people don't understand is that drugstore labs are all about speed not quality. If you need something quick then come to me otherwise you may want to go to a professional place. Also, you really should make friends with a particular lab. If you do you'll be treated much better and you will get the lower price. I treat everyone well but I'll bend over backwards for my regular customers. I usually won't for a stranger especially if I don't like you. If you come in with know-it-all attitude then you're not going to get very far with me.

-- Adam Wheeer, June 14, 2002
Some quicky labs are quite good, but in general I avoid them. For a while I took all of my film to a local Eckerd. The guy that ran the lab and did most of the processing was extremely serious about his job. He insisted on thorough training and lots of supervision for new employees. If a set of prints didn't look right, generally because of something I did, it was free. Or, if it wasn't too busy, they'd try fixing it up and reprinting. So, you might get lucky, but you have to be realistic.
Of course, nothing lasts forever. The guy got promoted and now I go to a pro lab.

-- neil hoffman, July 6, 2002

Hi. I work in a one hour photo lab and have been for a year and a half now. I've always been interested in photography and photo developing. I'm not a professional photographer, im in a drugstore 1 hr lab. All i have to say is that if you want your pictures perfect and theyr're very important to you then dont be stupid enough to bring them to 1 a one hour lab. It just kills me that people bring their wedding pictures and stuff like that in for one hour developing and they tell me to please be careful with their film that its important . Then if i get backed up and overloaded with a bunch of film and they come back complaining that its suppose to be done right that moment when here i am trying to be careful with their "sweet precious film" and theyre just rushing me making a big deal out of it . I'm just so sick of rude customers that think they know everything . I'm nice to all the customers and i do want their film to come out good but maybe our machines aren't advanced enough to make them perfect. So if it's not perfect dont come complaining to me about it i just work there and it's not my fault anyway if the pictures don't come out perfect. The machine does all the work , i just run them through and develop them. So if you bring your pictures in to a one hour lab expecting the best ITS YOUR OWN FAULT NOT THE EMPLOYEES!!!!!!!!

-- tabitha wright, July 10, 2002
This is an interesting discussion. I have to confess that I'm an ex-manager for the Qualex OSP (drugstore 1 hour) program, as well as an ex-pro lab empoyee, owner, and manager at various points in my career. Now I'm out of the lab business and have no axe to grind at all!
I have to agree that there is no way you should ever take anything critical to one of the drugstore labs. Many of the operators at your local CVS are actually great - and run a good clean operation, and pay attention to everything. But there are other operators who have no business there, and constantly make mistakes and ruin customers' film. We had a classic problem at Qualex we called the "friday night contamination." Even though the various chemicals were color coded (and even shape-coded for the color blind) every friday night appriximately 3-5% of the 400 machines in our district were contaminated when the operator put the wrong chemical in the wrong tank. That's because the operators were rushing around at closing time getting ready for the hot date or big party. A different operator would come in on Saturday morning, and run a control strip, which would be fine - since the machine had not replenished yet since being contaminated. But within about 5 rolls, the d-max would be slipping, and by the time 10 rolls were through, the film coming out of the machine would be blank.

At this point they would start telling the customers that their camera was broken, and only after 3 or 4 blank rolls would it finally sink in that they had a problem. Then they would call us to fix it.

The point is that not even a perfect control strip in the morning gurantees that your pictures will be OK.

So who's to blame? Well in the short term it's the operators. We trained them over and over, but the bottom line is that as long as the drugstore was paying peanuts, we didn't always get the best people. It cost Qualex a fortune to keep fixing these operator screw-ups, but no matter how we tried we could not get everybody to simply pay attention to what they were doing.

But the real blame for the lousy state of processing has to go to the customers!

The market has developed so that the price is the most important thing, and the quality just doesn't matter. And let's face it - do you really need those shots of your kids in 1 hour? If people were willing to pay more to insure that only trained professionals would touch their film, and each print would be individually hand-printed, color-corrected, and burned and dodged, there would be a custom lab on every corner. Instead the consumer has decided that price and speed are the most important, and so we're stuck with minilabs in drugstores. And no matter how good the machine is, there's just no way around the fact that the operators are not professional lab people and do screw up.

So if you want good processing, find a pro lab you trust and support them. Don't bitch about the price, because at this point in time, most of them are struggling just to keep afloat. If we aren't willing to pay more for a better service, soon all of the pro labs will be gone.

-- Mike Levitt, July 18, 2002

Pity all the Pro labs are not a little more professional. I've had one lab that I asked to do enlargements from slides give me horribly out of focus results. Twice in a row, even after I complained and they admitted the slide was sharp.
A different, and very expensive lab seemed to take the view that when croping the photo to fit you always start in the bottom right corner. Even when this resulted in people's heads being cut in half. Heads that where completely in the original photo.

So even when you pay the big bucks you can still get crappy results.

I just want to find a decent middle ground.

-- Marcus Christian, August 1, 2002

I am the manager of a independent 1 hour lab with digital equipment. We have had the same 2 people running the lab for 8 years. It is tough when a customer tells you how good you are and that they go to a drugstore but when they want something to look good they come to you.
It has really become a price issue not a quality issue, If you want better quality you are going to have to pay for it.

At my lab we are more than willing to work with the customer to return prints that they are happy with. we deal with quite a few pro's who will vouch for us and the work we do. I guess my point is if you want good consistent quality you have to pay for it.

billy burwick, manager, http://www_primecolorphoto_com

-- billy burwick, August 3, 2002

只有直接上数码,全程自己控制：）

晕了。。。
能借宝地问问在加拿大冲负片去哪里么？我在温哥华，WALMART就和我家隔一条马路，但是听大家一说。。。

看来问题满严重哦，好在俺现在只用反转了.

负片本身的性质是一个因素,冲印机的自动曝光功能是一个原因,然而,人的素质和工作态度才是最根本的问题.我不同意的观点是,你出了$8.00这份钱,就应该有冒风险的准备,要不你就送到所谓pro lab花两倍以上的价钱去.我认为,这是官僚主义的作风,是思维方式的问题.

为什么选择放弃用负片,或者说一般不用负片? 因为大多数冲印店不把你的劳动当成一回事,他的工作就是印成一堆照片给你,印出来的东西是什么效果不关他的事,你如果complain,他就给你redo(冲坏了也没法redo). 一些大侠在米国时间长了,习惯成自然了,可以理解. 但是如果说这就是资本主义,你花的钱就是这个效果,恐怕我不敢认同. 这不成了逆来顺受?

跟很多DX比,俺拍了片子不多,总共拍的不过4、5百个卷，基本上是负片。俺从中国来米国之前耳濡目染这里的冲印水平之高国内难以匹敌，看样子是误导了。国内的捷成什么的也可以出好片子，街边小店出的也是垃圾片，不是费话么？？